My Brave Defense of Gay People

A pretty long thread in What-if Sports that is noticeably less full of bullshit than normal, or at least is full of higher-quality bullshit. A Christian reverend makes some points:

"One of the biggest falacies is that gay people are "born gay"...there is not a gene that causes 100% of people who have it to be gay. People are gay by personal choice. Some may have more propencity than others because of education, environment, etc. But no one has ever been "born gay"."

"James 1:14-15

14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.

15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Once sin entered the world, all kinds of depravity came about from the imagination of sinful man. It goes back to being a free moral agent...someone down the line must've got curious and asked the question, "I wonder what it would feel like to have sex with a man"..."

"If a person still lusts in their heart for the same sex - it would be the same as if a person lusted for the opposite sex. Lust is lust regardless of which sex it is that you lust after...and any lust (except toward your wife) is a sin."

"As far as sin goes...we have to remember that ALL sexual conduct done outside of marriage is sin - regardless of what gender you prefer. And, all lust is sin regardless of which gender you prefer."

"It's one thing to recognize that a woman is beautiful...it's another to imagine having sex with that beautiful woman..."

So I said:

Wow, a semi-intelligent discussion in the Pit! Celebrate, it don't happen that often.

Now, davkar, to your point. Are you saying that when you see a beautiful woman, it never crosses your mind what it might be like having sex with her? I mean in the abstract, not that you have any intention of actually doing it, even if she were willing. I mean, you don't even have to flash on any truly porno thoughts to appreciate the curve of a breast, the sway of some hips.

If that truly never happens for you, then I am in awe, because it goes against everything I know about the human sex drive, particularly the male sex drive (just because that's what I know).

As a straight guy, I have no instinctive appreciation of how a guy looks and what I would like to do with him, like I would with a female. But from being friends with many gay men (and lesbians), I am convinced that they have exactly the same impulses I do, just directed differently.

I can be celibate (as a matter of fact, I am currently suffering from that condition). But I just can't see how you can argue that having sexual thoughts, about whatever flavor you prefer, is a sin. Actions are what matter. And I don't believe, if you are wired that way, that being gay is a sin. A gay man (or woman) who is somehow fooled into thinking that he/she should be hetero because that's the way God wants it is only cheating whoever the spouse is.

Or do you have another shoe to drop? Does your argument have something to do with procreation? Or do you have a theory about what is "natural" and therefore "good"?

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to anticipate where you're going next. You have put up a brave argument, and I respect you for it, but I find your stance ultimately immoral, because it creates pain where none should exist, and it denies the great diversity in individuals. I think we would agree about the frailty of human beings and the necessity to face sin squarely by cleaning our own houses, living a good life, trying not to cause harm and actively trying to improve the lives of those we're close to. Not being selfish, not cheating on our significant others, not being thieves and liars, etc. etc. I try every day to be a better guy than I was yesterday. But one thing is never going to change: when I see an attractive woman, I'm going to think about her sexually. It is involuntary, a function of how I perceive the world. And I can't imagine that gay people are any different.